Josh Johnson on Comedy and Mental Health in the Age of Social Media

A lot of what I do

is trying to manage a pretty unhealthy art form.

There's nothing mentally healthy about going

in front of a bunch of strangers and being like,

here are my ideas.

Do you like them?

No, silence, okay, I'll just scream in the shower

a week from now, thinking about it.

Wired sat down with comedian Josh Johnson

to discuss comedy in the age of TikTok.

This is The Big Interview.

Break down the anatomy of a Josh Johnson joke for me.

Like take me through sort of...

Does it have a specific structure or arc?

Before I do that, is it weird what I'm doing

with my hands, because I look like a tiny villain.

People will watch this and be like, what was he doing?

Okay, this feels good, alright.

I'm also gonna keep my elbow on the table

like I'm telling you secrets.

I mean, it's just us talking.

So the anatomy of a lot of my jokes,

I think that for the most part, what I try to do

is look at whether it's a specific topic in the news

or it's something that I feel very strongly about.

I think about sort of the angles

that maybe the audience is coming from

and then I try to think of all of the holes in my logic

or the traps that I could fall into.

You know that little game.

Sometimes you win it at like the fair

where it has the holes in it

and there's a little ball that you're trying

to get to a maze to the other side.

That's what I would describe as one of my jokes.

And the ball doesn't always make it to the other side.

Sometimes I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense.

That's my bad.

And so I think that that's the best way I can put it.

Like as an example, I watched the Olympics

and I even did a set on the Australian break dancer.

She was dressed like she was from Squid Game.

That's when I was like...

I was like, I don't know if you're taking this serious.

I don't know what's about to happen right now.

Because there was a lot of motions,

there were a lot of movements that I had never seen before

and I've been alive for a while.

And so I was like, that's some real creativity,

but also is it just bad,

because it's being like universally panned as like,

that was horrible.

The judge awarded her zero points

and I didn't know that was possible.

And so you also try to think of what's the subversive take?

Was it horrible?

Is there a way that I can prove it wasn't horrible

'cause now we're already having an interesting conversation.

Now I did fall in the camp that it was horrible.

I didn't do that at all.

I think a lot of us were there.

Yeah, but then there are so many other angles

to think about with it of like, okay,

we can joke about this person's performance.

You can try to clown this person,

but every country has to send a representative or two.

So then this person beat other dancers.

Who did she beat?

And so what were they dancing like,

and I think using that to ask more questions

and think of different angles,

because maybe if Australia had a better immigration policy,

there would've been some more black people in Australia

to be like, hey, don't,

and I'm not even saying you have to open your borders.

Three extra black people

could have prevented a nationwide disaster.

And there was a black dude in the background

that was like...

[audience laughing]

So basically I think that we are all here at one time

and we might all witness the same thing.

Some people are gonna find that event funny.

Some people are gonna find it potentially tragic.

Some people might be annoyed by it

after they hear about for the second time.

So the fact that we can all take different responses away

from one event and the fact that there's no one way

to feel about anything is a sort of diamond of takes

and different angles that you can approach something from.

So I try to do that with every joke and every story.

Yeah, it seems like in watching

and doing a lot of research for this interview

going through your TikToks, I was noticing this sort of,

there's this overarching macro joke,

but then there's sort of all these interior moments

within it that you try to hit.

I thought it was really sort of revelatory in that way.

That's the intention.

And sometimes they're not there.

Sometimes it's like, look,

I just find this one thing funny and that's it.

I think that I'm finding my way of communicating

with the audience and perspective through trying to hit

as many angles as possible for one specific thing.

Is that overwhelming?

Yeah, it may not even be healthy.

I think that for the most part, a lot of what I do

is like trying to manage

what is probably a pretty unhealthy art form.

Do you know what I mean?

There's nothing mentally healthy

about going in front of a bunch of strangers at once

and trying to get them to like you.

That screams everything

I think a psychologist would speak against,

you know what I mean?

Like it's just walking out

and being like, here are my ideas.

Do you like them?

No, you told me no with your silence?

Okay, I'll just stay up here, continue talking.

You don't like what I'm saying.

And then I'll just file that in my cabinet

in the back of the mind

so I scream in the shower a week from now thinking about it,

you know what I mean?

It's like a lot of it is overwhelming, but like I said,

I think that for so long,

I was doing jokes and I was writing

and I was trying to engage with people

and nobody really knew or cared.

And so I'd much rather have the pressure

and the sort of overwhelming aspect

than to just be throwing jokes into the abyss.

If we can, a little bit pivoting

and talk about sort of the social media of it all.

I'm curious, how has social media

changed your relationship to comedy?

I don't know if it has.

Two really big problems that people have,

not just comedians, but just people in general with social

is that one, it either feels like a living, breathing thing

or two, you feel like it's your friend.

And if it's either one of those things to you,

it can betray you very easily.

If Instagram is supposed to be your friend

and it's how you get a lot of your dopamine

and it's just a great experience every time,

then everyone's sort of trashing you on Instagram

or people not liking what you post

or people not even responding to what you post,

not caring at all.

I think that that can take a toll

on a person's mental health.

And so I think that the way that I try

to not let it affect my relationship with comedy

is that I'm doing comedy for the people

that come to the show.

It's a relationship between me

and the people that come to the show.

I then share it with people who weren't at the show,

but if they weren't at the show,

they might not have the same feeling

as the people that were there.

You know how sometimes you'll go to a concert

and people have their phone

and they're recording the concert

and everyone makes the joke

that they're not gonna watch that later,

so just watch the concert.

But I have watched that on someone else's phone.

And when they were showing me the concert on the phone,

I was like, must've been nice

'cause I'm not getting anything out of this right now.

Like, this is a shaky...

Your shaky hand moving and you swear that it's Kendrick,

I can hear a Kendrick song,

but I can also hear you going, ah.

So it's like, what is this supposed to be for me?

But I think comedy is my relation to the people

that are here right now

and then posting to social is my relation to people

who I hope will come to a show one day

and who I think will enjoy these jokes

that I may not do again,

which is another reason why I post

because I'm not trying

to do the identical set over and over.

So when I'm done with a joke, why not share it?

Why not share it with people who I believe will enjoy it?

It's either that or less people get to see it

for the end of time.

Like it's just a joke that I sort of like,

take to the grave outside of me

and the people that went to the show.

So no identical sets ever?

Not as far as last year.

I definitely, when I was getting ready

for specials in the past,

would do the same set leading up to make sure

that the performance of the special was as like tight

as it could be.

People talk a lot about crowd work

and comedy now and everything.

And I think one of the reasons that crowd work does so well

is because for the people who are at the show,

you're making them part of the show

and you're bringing them in into an experience

that they won't forget because it's a singular moment

where they were part of the show

and you're giving them a turn.

Your videos sort of run counter to

how we consume social media.

They often run four to five minutes long,

which is feels like a lifetime on TikTok sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty long-winded.

Why do you think they found such an audience

in the way that they have?

I think that anything that you find interesting,

there are people like you out in the world.

And so I actually think

it's a really like refreshing reminder

that we're not alone.

I think length is not the real issue,

I think it's just general interest.

And I won't be talking about things that are interesting

to everybody all the time,

but I think that when you find genuine interest

and enthusiasm in something, you can bring people into it

'cause they're like, oh, I don't know about this,

maybe I will be interested in it.

And so I also think it's indicative of the fact

that when you put things out

and you're not putting them out for some result,

you're putting them out because you hope

that people will enjoy them, right?

Whether they get one view or they get one million views,

the length is the length for a reason

and I'm doing my best to connect with people

who find joy in what I do.

And so I'm glad that it's worked out

and my hope is obviously when I put things out

that people will watch them.

I can't hold too much attachment to the outcome.

Obviously I'll notice if tomorrow everything gets one view,

I'd be like, is that just my mom then?

Is just mama watching now, because even I should be a view.

So the fact that it's one view

and not two, ooh, we must be doing poorly,

but at the same time, I put it out for people to enjoy.

And if no one enjoyed it, then that's my bad,

but as long as they are, I hope to continue making things

for them to enjoy.

So talk to me a bit about being a comedian online today.

You're on TikTok, you're on Instagram, on YouTube.

What's your sort of strategy for social output?

I think the general strategy is to

share the sort of like more topical thoughts

of either the day or the week or the big event

and then break them into

as many different pieces as possible

because I think that everyone's gonna consume differently

and I think that obviously certain things will do well

on a platform that won't do as well on another.

You might see something that's posted to YouTube

and it does well.

And then maybe it even does well

with YouTube shorts when you break it into pieces

or something, but then you post it to like Twitter

and it doesn't do well at all.

And you're like, ah, yes, there wasn't enough hate.

I should have rage baited more

if I wanted to get a real result.

Twitter's the real test.

But I think that just 'cause

one thing does something somewhere,

you can't expect it across the board.

And then also I think that in order

to sustain myself

and keep creating things that people enjoy,

I have to release attachment

from how things are gonna go on social.

So it's like I post to share, but I look at sharing

as the way you share anything physical.

I think that the digital and the physical are the same.

I might want to share with you a peanut butter

and pickle sandwich and you're like, nah,

I'm good, I'm good.

I'm all right, you know what I mean?

And I think that sometimes, jokes work the same way.

And so I think that you obviously try

to lean to your strengths on every platform

and if something works,

you're probably gonna lean into the way

that you did it last time

and if it doesn't work, that's how you learn and stuff.

So I think that as far as like an editing

or maybe this thumbnail is a good structure or whatever,

but I don't think that for me, as like a comic,

I can put too much weight

on exactly how things are going online

because once again, the show that I'm making

is for the people that come.

So you don't read the comments online at all about your--

No, I read the comments

and I think that the comments are important

because my director, when I've done specials

and stuff like that,

he directed my Peacock special and everything,

his name's Jacob Menache and he and I

read the comments with different context.

So I read the comments to see if people like the jokes.

And sometimes it's good

because then someone will be like, come to this place

and then if I'm coming, obviously you can put like, hey,

I'll be there at this date, whatever.

But the way that Jacob put it was,

there's nothing in film that gives the instant feedback

that YouTube gives.

With film, you have a movie and you shoot it.

You do all the stuff for a movie,

you cast it, you have everybody shoot it,

you do the post-production, everything.

You wrap it up, you send it off.

The studio likes it, you put it out,

then you do press and everything

and then the press is a lead up of anticipation,

excitement for the movie, the movie comes out.

People go and see the movie,

but you still have to wait for the box office.

You still have to wait for the reviews.

You still have to wait for all this different feedback

for a thing that's an idea that you had a long time ago

that you created that you watch come to life.

Whereas with YouTube, the second,

the second you post somebody can be like, sucks, it's bad,

you obviously have to take off it with a grain of salt

'cause whether it's actually bad,

whether it is categorically bad,

whether I put out a set that is the comedy equivalent

of the Aussie break dancer

or if I put out a set that's like, people love it

and they think it's amazing or whatever, they'll tell me

and they'll tell me now I'll know immediately.

Learning to discern what's just general feedback

and general love or hate

because I don't think you can lean too much into either,

I think either breed a sort of delusion of yourself,

one negative and one positive.

I think that the overall feedback

is what lets you're on the right track.

Building on that note, and the sort of final question,

is it weird being a comedian in the age of social media?

It almost seems like you have

to have different instincts to succeed today.

Everything is magnified.

Everyone's competing for everyone else's attention.

Even if you aren't a comedian,

everybody's sort of chasing trends.

You brought up crowd work.

You're seeing that a lot now on social media

and TikTok and Instagram.

I'm wondering if how sort of your relationship

and within all of this.

I just think there are different opportunities.

I think that for every era of comedy,

it has been difficult.

And I think that for every era of comedy,

there have been people who through whatever

that status quo way of coming up,

came up first and are kind of the reason

that you do some of these things.

So back in the day when Johnny Carson

was hosting the Tonight Show, you get a Carson set,

you do really well.

Carson invites you over to the couch, he's talking to you.

Now all of a sudden you get free airtime on top of your set.

People would be set for the year as far as touring went.

And then Carson leaves the Tonight Show

and now people are like, oh, what do we do?

How are we gonna sell our tickets, what's next?

And then you had people that still kept to late night,

but then you had people that were

doing sort of subversive things.

Oh, I'm gonna tape my own special, put it out on VHS

and just mail it to a bunch of networks

and see if one of 'em likes it, maybe one of 'em likes it,

then getting a special

and we're talking like a couple decades

removed from each other, but like,

then getting a special was the way

to like set yourself up for the whole year,

touring tickets and stuff like that.

Every form to get people to buy tickets will change.

And the through line of all of it

is that you're a comedian doing comedy.

And as long as you're doing that

and you're doing it for the people who show up,

you're gonna grow.

It's not as if all of this like,

incredible success is inevitable,

but I think a general success at doing comedy is inevitable.

If you are a painter, if you're a writer,

if you're a dancer, if you're an actor,

there are more accessible ways

through the internet than ever before.

I know that that means that the barrier to entry

is lower than ever--

It's so crowded, yeah.

But I think that quality isn't crowded.

I think if you continuously provide quality for people,

not only will you stand out,

but I think opportunities will come.

And I think that people talk about networking stuff,

but if you build friendships with other people

who produce quality, there's no way that you won't succeed.

I wanna make quality for the people that come to the show

and I want everyone else that I share it with to enjoy it.

But people sort of lose their minds over like, well,

can we get to 10 million,

can we get to a billion, can we get to whatever?

It's like that stuff will either come or it won't.

There's no way to guarantee it

and there's no strategy good enough to guarantee it.

But I mean, it is healthy to set goals yourself

when you're sort of setting out at the beginning of it

and you should have sort of benchmarks.

Yeah, but I think those benchmarks,

anything that is not up to you, in my opinion,

shouldn't be a goal.

Anything that I...

All I can control is, did the people coming to the show

have a phenomenal time?

Is this maybe the best comedy show they've ever been to?

And if somebody tells me that

after the show, this is a good example of a goal to me.

So yeah, there are goals and there are benchmarks,

but all the goals, all the benchmarks have to be things

that you yourself can produce.

I wanna win all these awards.

Those are clearly not up to me, you know what I mean?

I want a lot of things.

I want to be your size.

When I met you, I was like, man,

if I were your size, I'd be a problem.

I wouldn't be polite at all.

If I was your size,

everyone would know what I think about them.

Well, I mean, if I was as funny as you,

I'm sure I'd be a problem too.

Maybe, but if we switched for a day, ooh,

you would get a call from me

and be like, listen, I got locked up.

It's not even my fault.

Well thank you Josh.

Thank you for the big interview.

Thank you, great to meet you.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for doing this.