Influencers Take Over the DNC

The Democratic National Convention organizers really rolled out the blue carpet for influencers this year. Today on the show, WIRED senior reporter Makena Kelly joins from Chicago to talk about the Democrats’ strategy of favoring creators over journalists, and whether it will help them win votes. Plus, behind the scenes at the influencer after-parties.

Leah Feiger is @LeahFeiger. Makena Kelly is @kellymakena.  Write to us at politicslab@WIRED.com. Be sure to subscribe to the WIRED Politics Lab newsletter here.

Mentioned this week:
The DNC Is Officially the Influencer Convention, by Makena Kelly
A Visual Guide to the Influencers Shaping the 2024 Election, by Makena Kelly

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.

Leah Feiger: This is WIRED Politics Lab, a show about how tech is changing politics. I'm Leah Feiger, the senior politics editor at WIRED. Today on the show, the 2024 Democratic National Convention is almost over. Earlier this week, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama rallied Democrats around their new candidate.

Joe Biden [Archival audio]: Are you ready to vote for freedom?

Audience: Yeah!

Joe Biden [Archival audio]: Are you ready to vote for democracy and for America?

Audience: Yeah!

Joe Biden [Archival audio] And tonight, Kamala Harris will close out the event. But unlike in conventions past, every night has also featured influencers. People like content creator and abortion rights activists, Deja Foxx.

Deja Foxx [Archival audio]: People my age are making big decisions about our lives and we deserve a president who has our back.

Leah Feiger: And Carlos Eduardo Espina, a TikTokker and immigration rights activist.

Carlos Eduardo Espina [Archival audio]: To be pro-immigrant is to be pro-America.

Leah Feiger: Two hundred other content creators are attending and posting, all invited by the DNC, to connect with young voters, and they hope help Kamala Harris beat Donald Trump. Joining me from Chicago to talk about what's going on at the DNC is WIRED senior reporter Makena Kelly. Hey, Makena, how's it going?

Makena Kelly: I'm a little tired, but it's day three here at the convention, and there's been a lot going on. A lot going on.

Leah Feiger: In addition to all of the DNC events during the day, you're also going to all of the parties at night. How are they?

Makena Kelly: Yeah, I was out until 2:00 am last night. The last thing on my schedule was from 10:00 to 2:00 am, and it was a party called Hotties for Harris, and it was thrown, it wasn't …

Leah Feiger: Hotties for Harris, I can't get enough of that name.

Makena Kelly: I know. Some of the folks at a youth organizing group called Voters of Tomorrow help sponsor it. There's a bunch of sponsors for this, and when I talked to the people who set it up, they called it a creator activation party. And so, when I got there, I was like, okay, so what is this about? And you go in, there's a bunch of different rooms, and it's basically the Museum of Ice Cream, but for liberals.

Leah Feiger: Incredible. I can see it now.

Makena Kelly: Just all different places for libs to take photos that are kind of goofy and kind of silly. When you first walk in, there's a wall that says Wall of Weirdos, and it's like portraits of JD Vance and Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani. And you can pose right there and take a photo with them. And then, you take a couple steps and it's the Wall of Hotties, Tim Walz, Kamala, all the Democrat superstars, and you can pose with them too. There's also exclusive merch, limited edition merch, which there was giant lines.

Leah Feiger: Amazing.

Makena Kelly: Yeah, no, it was wild. There's a bunch of different setups, and it was all related to Kamala's campaign.

Leah Feiger: It was an influencer party.

Makena Kelly: That's essentially what it was.

Leah Feiger: Right?

Makena Kelly: I saw so many folks there. If you're familiar with Pearl Mania, he's like a political influencer comedian on TikTok. He's pretty big. Claudia Conway was there, Kellyanne Conway's daughter. I think when I talked to the people who were running it, it was about 800 they were expecting that night.

Leah Feiger: You've been writing about this for us for the last week, months, et cetera. But the Democratic Party has really been pivoting towards influencers to get their message out. And the DNC has been no different. Talk to us about how the DNC has been interacting with influencers and content creators over the last couple of days.

Makena Kelly: Okay. So they are getting pretty much the VIP treatment. Sunday was the first day, a majority of them were there. They went to some parties. There was a tiki party that was coconut themed, Kamala coconut themed, thrown by the Future Forward PAC. And then, on Monday, the party that everyone was so excited to go to was the yacht party in the morning prior to the convention. And so, there's influencers on this yacht in Chicago with Gwen Walz on there. I think I saw Pete Buttigieg on there. Also campaign staff for Kamala campaign.

Leah Feiger: Unreal.

Makena Kelly: And everyone's just mingling and drinking. I think they had two signature cocktails on there, and it was the Midwest Margarita and the I'm Speaking Spritz. And so, people were drinking those and mingling with each other and taking pictures and just having a great time.

Leah Feiger: And it's not just parties either, right? I mean, each night at the convention actually features one influencer/activist on stage. Who have you been seeing and paying attention to specifically? Who's getting the airtime?

Makena Kelly: Yeah, Carlos Eduardo Espina. I think he is one of the bigger creators that has actually taken the stage. He does a lot of work on immigration policy, and I think The New York Times called him like a one-man Telemundo in a profile that they wrote about him a while ago. So he's big. Olivia Julianna, she's one of the people who started this youth organization called Gen Z for Change. Gen Z for Change still exists, and they do a lot of organizing work, but Olivia does more reproductive stuff on her own and has become her own creator. And everyone is at the convention center. There are so many places for these creators to go and make content. It's pretty insane.

Leah Feiger: What's the difference really for these kinds of creators versus Democratic celebrities that are being brought in like Steve Kerr? How does their reach differ? Why is the DNC pulling them as well?

Makena Kelly: For a long time, the Democratic Party has had its grasp on Hollywood and celebrities, and they have this mega influencer thing with them where they have an instant reach to a ton of people. But when you look at these creators, they're political for the most part. They are going to talk about politics. They might focus on something specifically. And then, also, I think what they're trying to get at is these relationships and communities that these individual creators have built with their audiences. That's really the important part. And there's specific audiences that they can deliver specific messages too in order to rally them and get them out to vote.

Leah Feiger: Even some of the creators you mentioned like Espina and Julianna, they were featured in your big project that we published last week about all of the influencers on the right and the left that are at these conventions and are just getting very involved in the campaigns or commenting on the campaigns. I'm still so interested in something you've been talking about for such a long time, which is these influencers are necessary in a totally different way now because the internet is so fragmented, because these different corners, there's so many different spaces where people are getting their news, where people are getting "influenced" by the people around them in their for you feeds. Are you seeing a diversity of influencers at the convention from different states, different causes? What is that breakdown looking like to you?

Makena Kelly: It's definitely incredibly diverse. So I think they have a big bucket of influencers that they have, and in that bucket, they have just your typical political news influencer who maybe is pro Kamala anyways, but just reads news, headlines, and breaks down stuff related to the campaign. So there's that side. But then there's people who are just lifestyle influencers who focus more so on fashion and makeup and things like that. And I spoke to Jeremy Jacobowitz. He is a big creator on TikTok who does food reviews, and he was there too.

Leah Feiger: Incredible.

Makena Kelly: And so, he had access to the blue carpet. I think he spoke to Representative Lori Trahan last night and asked her his question to all these people has been, "If Trump and Kamala were food dishes, what would they be?" And that's been his content so far.

Leah Feiger: Oh my, God. It's just such an interesting thing that the Democrats are pushing for, and they're really pushing for it. I mean, like you're saying, these yacht parties, these creator parties, even if not all of it is specifically organized by the DNC, it's very VIP. And you wrote an article for us this week about how some journalists are a bit miffed about this and creators are getting this big rollout, VIP treatment. Talk to us about what that's looking like.

Makena Kelly: The difference with creators from traditional media is that they have, at least I was at two different creator lounges, which are sided off from the rest of the convention hall. There's curtains keeping these creators in there with couches and food and wine and drinks.

Leah Feiger: Unreal.

Makena Kelly: So there was one on the ground floor, there was one on the fifth floor, and they can just hang out there. I think Hasan Piker, who of course we had on the show, he's set up in one of the creator lounges in this makeshift streaming studio, which looks a little silly. Those are the two big lounges. But then, what we have is they have access to the floor. And so, they can request some time slot for 15 to 20 minutes to be on this three-tiered creator-only platform, which is right on the floor next to the delegates-

Leah Feiger: Wow.

Makena Kelly: ... next to the stage. They have a beautiful vantage point of the stage. You can just take selfies with Joe Biden if you wanted to from there. And so, you see a lot of people doing that. And before you know, the event really starts, people are on that platform, and Jaime Harrison, of course, the DNC chair, other people will wander over there and just be like, "Hey, ask me some stuff, make some content with me."

Leah Feiger: Wow.

Makena Kelly: So these people are being approached. They're not seeking this out as much, but they're being approached by the DNC, by lawmakers, by political officials, and it's been wild to even watch this in real life and simultaneously in Instagram stories and on TikTok.

Leah Feiger: I mean, that's fascinating. Harris has been avoiding media interviews. She hasn't had sit-downs, and everyone knows now why Biden did the same. His campaign staff was concerned that he wasn't going to be able to speak eloquently or clearly about his policy positions or about the campaign in general because of his age. Harris is obviously in a different situation, but it does seem like her campaign is still choosing influencers as the proxy the same way that Biden did. How do we feel about that? Is that what you're seeing happening too?

Makena Kelly: Yeah, I mean, since 2020, I think influencers and creators have become a lot more integral to these campaigns. Kamala specifically, I mean, she would be able to do this content unlike Biden. She could do the Hot Ones interview and she could do all of this. So that's a big question about why she isn't, and it's probably because she doesn't have to right now. These people are already excited about her. They're doing user generated content, the Brat memes, all this stuff. She doesn't have to engage with it right now because it's all there grassroots and ready for her.

Leah Feiger: Right now, talking to media is just, you don't know what's going to happen, whereas you can control the message a little bit, at least, that influencers are putting out, especially if they're influencers that you've invited to your own events.

Makena Kelly: Right, and they don't have a lot of time to spin anything. Kamala, of course, is jumping into this super late. Maybe they just want to ride out this excitement, ride out this high as far as they can, and then maybe later engage more with the media. But seeing just how influencers were incorporated in the DNC this week, it seems very clear that they are becoming part of the press operation within the party.

Leah Feiger: Wow. And I have to say, we've been watching the DNC every night, and these speeches have been intense. They have come for Trump, they have come for the Republican Party, they have come for Project 2025, and they've also, as many have talked about, very much hearken back to 2008, trying to hope, unity, not depict Kamala as the incumbent candidate. And they're also talking a lot about specifically Democrats as the party for middle America, for middle class Americans, for the Midwest, for Southern Democrats, all of these people that they're saying that Trump actually has no appeal to, does not care about, the policies are so different, which is why it's very, very strange to then watch the influencers getting yacht parties and free wine and food and these massive content creator parties where you have engagement with staff and campaigns. Jaime Harrison is coming up to you. This is very different. Are they going to have a bit of an image issue soon or are they just going to continue riding the high of this free content?

Makena Kelly: Sure. And some what I think the Democratic Party thinks about all of this is that they're actually, when they are talking to these creators, they're talking to voters. They are talking to the people. They're not talking to the big media or anything. So you want to talk about trying to be the party of Middle America talking to a creator from Pennsylvania or talking to a small creator in Iowa, that's maybe who they're thinking is reaching these people, but it is not lost on the creators how the optics are of this. One of the creators that I was speaking to, I asked him, I was like, "Did you go to the yacht party on Monday?" And he was like, "Yeah, it was really fun." And I was like, "Yeah, so did you do anything? Did you take pictures?" He's like, "Yeah, I only posted one picture because it was weird to be on a yacht here at the DNC."

Leah Feiger: Totally. While all of these speeches are going up around you about how we're going to be raising taxes on behalf of middle class families, we're going to be doing rent caps on behalf of middle class families, also, please vote for us and look at our fun influencers that are now replacing journalists on this yacht. It's weird. And you also talked to California Congressman Ro Khanna this week about influencers at the DNC and their relationship to journalists. Tell us a little bit about what he said.

Makena Kelly: Yeah, Ro Khanna loves talking to these creators.

Ro Khanna [Archival audio]: They're fresh and they're more interesting, and they don't just want to talk about the horse race, and they don't just want to talk about who insulted who. They want to talk about actual vision, and I think they're injecting a new energy and a new ideas into the American political discourse that desperately needs it.

Makena Kelly: He thinks that he can have these longer, more nuanced conversations. I asked him, I said, "Okay, so what about the idea that these creators aren't asking you tough questions? You might get this platform, but can they hold you accountable for things?" And he pivoted and he said, "Well, on Briahna Joy Gray Show, or on Breaking Points, or these shows that are actually more media than they are like influencers, maybe sometimes they ask me even stronger and tougher questions."

Ro Khanna: And I get more beaten up on some of those than I do when I go on.

Makena Kelly: But when it's just these folks like, "What do you think Kamala Harris would be as a food dish?" That's not journalism, and that's not an accountability.

Leah Feiger: Right. And it can also though serve an important purpose. Exciting your voter base is a very real part of any campaign. And one of the things that Khanna said to you that was so interesting to me was talking about influencers as the future. They're fresh, they're fun, they're interesting. That to me is fascinating. It's influencer replacing journalists. It's influencer in addition to journalists. It's tough to say exactly the future that Khanna is envisioning. There's a place for influencers to excite the base, and there's a place for journalists to report on the base. But at the end of the day, everyone seems to be having a lot of fun. Are you seeing people have just an immense amount of fun with their content creation and all these parties they're going to?

Makena Kelly: All we hear about is bringing joy back. This is what the Kamala campaign is doing. Tim Walz brings it up. Michelle Obama brought it up earlier this week as well in her speech, that they're bringing back this hope and excitement and joy, and maybe by interacting with these content creators, this is their way of making sure and ensuring that this excitement stays. And all of this is so different from when Joe Biden was the nominee. When you scroll through TikTok or Instagram or whatever, people posting about the election really seemed like they were posting about a funeral.

Leah Feiger: Yikes, and also probably true. Thanks so much, Makena. When we come back, what's happening outside the DNC and what happens next? Welcome back to WIRED Politics Lab. Makena, obviously, the Democrats' hope for what happens at this convention is to go viral with these influencers' help. And this week has already had a ton of memeable moments.

Makena Kelly: So many.

Leah Feiger: And obviously, there's been the sincere ones, the 2008 vibes, Michelle Obama's amazing speech that everyone's talking about. Hillary Clinton's speech talking about Kamala finally breaking the glass ceiling. But there's also been the hilarious, I mean the incredible roll call for all the states saying how their delegates voted and arguably the best of all.

Barack Obama [Archival audio]: There's the childish nicknames, the crazy conspiracy theories.

Leah Feiger: Which is when Barack Obama made an actual dick joke about Donald Trump.

Barack Obama [Archival audio]: This weird obsession with crowd sizes.

Leah Feiger: He held out his hand like a foot or so, and then brought his hands back in, shrugged, as the entire convention absolutely erupted. That was wild.

Makena Kelly: This is not your mom's Democratic Party anymore.

Leah Feiger: It really, really isn't. But this is obviously made for the internet. All of this is made for the internet and the DNC, these Dem operatives, they know that. Tell us how everything like this is spreading online. Are the influencers helping get this stuff out?

Makena Kelly: Yeah. So I think something that hasn't been talked about enough actually is the resources that a lot of these creators have. They have access to a ton of these videos. They have access to all of these moments. They're recording it from the press galleries from the floor, and the people there are really important. But there's also a group of other creators who are working directly with the DNC who are just virtual creators who are receiving content from the DNC to post from wherever they are in the country, whether that's California or Washington or wherever right now. So there's a stream of content coming directly from the Democratic Party to all of these influencers that they're just able to use from their homes. So we have 200 on the ground, but who knows how many that we have on the wider internet.

Leah Feiger: It's kind of amazing. The Democratic Party a month and a half ago, it was dire for them. They were grasping at straws. It looked like they literally couldn't figure out how to put a single TikTok or Instagram post together without being accused of being the cringiest grandparents imaginable. And everything has changed. Apart from the big appearances on the main stage though, what kinds of content have other people been posting? Is there anything that you're seeing that standing out is particularly clever, impactful, fun merch maybe?

Makena Kelly: There's a ton of it. I went to the expo center on Monday and I saw Brat green T-shirts that said Demo Brat on it. Hats that say Unburdened.

Leah Feiger: Incredible.

Makena Kelly: There's these old school T-shirts that say like Harris-Walz, and they look like there's trucks on it and stuff, and it's all this camo, everything. There is so much.

Leah Feiger: I mean, I'm seeing it all over my for you page. I can't get away from this merch. I can't get away from this content. And the other thing, oh my gosh, we have to talk about this. The other thing that keeps coming up is all of these conservative, right-wing influencers that made it into the DNC. They're trying to infiltrate, troll people, but they're the ones that are getting trolled. I mean, Matt Walsh in a wig, Charlie Kirk walking the convention floor, getting into fights with 12 year olds. It's been amazing to watch.

Makena Kelly: The funny thing about Charlie Kirk is that he had some argument with Parker Parker, who is a young guy from Georgia, and they got into a big spat about Georgia votes and Trump, and it went viral.

Parker Parker[Archival audio]: You're an unpatriotic anti-constitutional person crashing our parties.

Charlie Kirk [Archival audio]: So let me ask you a question.

Parker Parker [Archival audio]: Because you tried to obstruct our democracy.

Charlie Kirk [Archival audio]: I got one question. I got one question.

Parker Parker [Archival audio]: Donald Trump called the Secretary State of Georgia and told him to find him some votes.

Charlie Kirk [Archival audio]: What is a woman?

Parker Parker [Archival audio]: Oh, my God.

Makena Kelly: Charlie seemed to really think that it was good for him, and people just continued to dunk on him just like Parker did. And it created what is essentially, to me, feels like a trend here at the convention center, which is creators seeing how well that video did, Charlie getting dunked on, and then them all doing it themselves and finding him somewhere in the convention center. It really feels like the DNC invited Charlie Kirk just so the creators could dunk on him at this point.

Leah Feiger: I mean, it's incredible content. I can't turn away from it.

Makena Kelly: It's like 4D chess.

Leah Feiger: And outside of the convention center, things are obviously a little bit different. I mean, we have to talk about the people that are protesting the war in Gaza. Are people at the convention or the influencers and content creators there, are they acknowledging these protests?

Makena Kelly: My WIRED colleague, Dhruv Mehrotra, is actually outside covering the protest for us. So we're recording this on Wednesday morning and proceedings at the convention haven't really been affected. When Biden was speaking on Monday, there were a handful of protesters who turned their back to him and just covered their mouths and did a silent protest. There also were some individuals who held a big banner out this week that said something in support of Palestine, but that reception wasn't all that good because a bunch of delegates turned around and started whacking the sign with their We heart Joe signs.

Leah Feiger: Wow.

Makena Kelly: So there's a little tension there, but for the most part, it hasn't been that disruptive. The most disruptive part, I think, about the protests was Monday when the delegates were all trying to come in for roll call and the protest actually kept all of their buses from even getting to the convention center.

Leah Feiger: I mean, definitely a lot of tension there. If the goal of the DNC for bringing in all these creators is to reach young people with these influencers, how are they engaging with the war, which is terribly unpopular with these exact young audiences that Democrats are trying to reach? It feels like there's a little point that's missing there.

Makena Kelly: What the Democratic Party is doing here at the convention to recognize Gaza, I think a lot of the protesters don't think it's enough. There was the first Palestinian rights panel talking about the conflict in Gaza where they had a bunch of people speak on it for the first time, I think is what they said at any DNC. It was the first Palestinian rights panel that they've ever had. So there was that, and of course you have AOC, Bernie Sanders, and people up there on the big stage during prime time calling for a ceasefire. So I think these protesters feel at least a little seen, but at the same time, they're trying to get Kamala to do more if she were to be elected.

Leah Feiger: And we'll see what unfolds over the next couple of days as well. Obviously, we're towards the end of the DNC, but there's still a couple more evenings left, and it doesn't appear to be 1968 Democratic National Convention vibes, but I'm from Chicago and I know that things can turn on a dime. So people may also forget that this is not just a stage where politicians like Kamala Harris get to address massive crowds. It's an actual convention, which means there's tons of sessions to attend where people can talk about phone banking and texting, and like you said, about Palestinian rights, how to capture the youth vote or how to use social media in a campaign. Talk us through some of the big ones this year. What have been the themes that you're seeing getting pushed?

Makena Kelly: There's been a lot of sessions on relational organizing, disinformation, how to spot it. Microsoft is doing some sessions on disinfo and deep fakes. And then, there is a hackathon going on where campaigns and nonprofits are coming to this group with issues that they think maybe AI could solve, and connecting them with technologists to create new products and services to resolve those. One that I found really interesting though was that a hackathon that they did last week at New York City where they were able to create something with AI that would translate Hindi disinformation on Kamala Harris into English, and then create counter messaging in its LLM to counter it as well. So these are the kind of issues that they're trying to attack.

Leah Feiger: That's so interesting. Okay, cool. I feel like I saw a lot of content about youth vote as well. That was a really big event. That to me, that's been echoed in the speeches. Obama's very, very clear message this week where he spent several minutes of his speech praising Biden, praising Biden's record, and saying that he's a dear friend before saying, "And now the torch is passed." That kind of feels like one of the major themes this year is the passing of the torch. The creators are there, the influences are there. This is about the youth vote. What have you been seeing to that effect?

Makena Kelly: Sure. I mean, there's a ton of youth voting organizations that have their own little places. I saw a giant Brat green place for people to take photos for next gen America. It says Kamala Brat on it or Vote Brat, and there's a bunch of the merch like we talked about, but these young people are being catered to. That's the important message from the Kamala Harris campaign this week is that the youth vote matters, and it might be enough to secure her this election ahead of Donald Trump.

Leah Feiger: Makena, in the influencer project that we mentioned earlier that you published last week, one of the shocking findings from it was just that Republicans seem to have a huge advantage when it comes to the influencers and creators on their side. You have Elon Musk with millions and millions of followers on X, Jake and Logan Paul, even Charlie Kirk, all of their follower counts absolutely dwarf the follower counts from the left. With the DNC and Harris going all in on these young influencers, all in on the youth vote, and all in on online culture, is that enough? If this is a numbers game, Republicans just appear to have more reach.

Makena Kelly: Sure. I mean, the biggest Republicans are some of the biggest influencers and creators, but the smaller creators that the Democrats are reaching, they're reaching a lot more of those smaller creators who probably, if you think about it, have maybe a larger reach than those Republicans because there just are so many of them and what they say is of consequence to their audiences. For the most part, these people who follow them have a direct relationship with them. They care about the specific issue that they're talking about. There really is probably no more effective way in influencer marketing than to find the smaller creators. Because if you're not big, these people really, really care about what it is that you have to say if they're following you.

Leah Feiger: How much do you actually think that their reach will matter at the end? Do we know that they're actually able to change people's minds or get people to donate or go out and vote?

Makena Kelly: I think the main thing that the campaign gets out of this is amplification. So the content that they put out and the content that the community puts out itself, whether it's the Brat memes, the coconut memes, or it's talking about whatever it is that Kamala did or Tim Walz said, coach, whatever. It's the amplification of these things, and this message being passed on by people on social media know, they recognize, and that gets passed down, just passed from Kamala, Tim Walz, to celebrities and influencers, and then hopefully, I think the campaign would say that gets into everyday voters who are then talking to their families, your neighbor, your father, your mother. If you talk to them about voting, they're probably going to be a bit more receptive to you than any campaign or anyone online.

Leah Feiger: Yeah, we're going to see. Small scale versus big scale. Who's going to win out here? Makena, thank you so much. We are going to take a quick break and when we come back, it's time for Conspiracy of the Week. Welcome back to WIRED Politics Lab where it's time for Conspiracy of the Week, the portion of the show where I pick my favorite conspiracy that our guests bring to us. But because there's just two of us today, I'm going to be picking one and Makena's going to be picking the other. Makena, what do you have for us today?

Makena Kelly: Oh, man. This is my favorite DNC related conspiracy that's been going on. In the lead up to this convention, we've been seeing a lot of people in right wing media who are obsessed with the idea that Tim Walz is going to resign this week, and I think it says a lot about where people are getting their information because nowhere is anyone at this convention or anywhere on the Democratic Party even thinking Tim Walz would resign, whereas it seems like the Jack Posobiecs and Charlie Kirks and all of them are fully convinced it could happen.

Leah Feiger: Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty funny one. It also seems like some wishful thinking on their own side, maybe some dreams that JD Vance is about to step down. Tough to say.

Makena Kelly: Right.

Leah Feiger: It's also talk about fragmented media. There's such different spaces on this right now. Mine is also DNC related, it's a little bit of inside baseball, so you're going to have to tell me what the vibes are there. I've been so obsessed in the lead up to the DNC about all of the anonymous quotes from former Biden campaign staffers and advisors who are saying absolutely everything under the sun about how upset Biden feels about being shoved to the side. He's going to come, he's going to make his speech, but he's still upset, and I hate all of this. There is a conspiracy that popped up a little bit on Monday when Biden was getting ready to speak, that actually found some purchase on both the left and the right about how things were running behind at the DNC and Biden's speech ended up getting pushed, and that was actually a conspiracy to get him out of prime time with the idea that it was going to be a very weekly delivered, perhaps not exciting, whatever. That's obviously not what happened. Events run behind, but I loved it. I loved watching it. I loved watching it all happen. True inside baseball, who cares when you speak? Things run late. All right. Between these, I'm calling it a tie. I think I have to call it a tie this week. I'm hoping for some juicier DNC conspiracies to come out. I mean, I wanted to see Mayor Daley was going to rise from the dead and do battle with Abbie Hoffman is [inaudible 00:29:49] looked around. I wanted some resurrection of 1968 ghosts. Everyone's just so hopeful, nothing conspiratorial about that, I guess.

Makena Kelly: The vibes are too good here.

Leah Feiger: The vibes are too good. Makena, thank you so much for all the excellent reporting that you're doing out of the DNC this week for WIRED. Go check it out on WIRED.com and thank you for joining us.

Makena Kelly: Yeah, no, it's great to be back talking about all this.

Leah Feiger: Listeners, we are off next week, but we will be back in your feeds in just two weeks. See you then. Thanks for listening to WIRED Politics Lab. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow the show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. We also have a newsletter, which Makena Kelly writes each week. The link to the newsletter and the WIRED reporting we mentioned today are in the show notes. If you'd like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, or show suggestions, please write to politicslab@WIRED.com. That's politicslab@WIRED.com. We're so excited to hear from you. WIRED Politics Lab is produced by Jake Harper. Pran Bandi is our studio engineer. Amar Lal mixed this episode. Stephanie Kariuki is our executive producer. Chris Bannon is Global Head of Audio at Conde Nast. And I'm your host, Leah Feiger. We'll be back in your feeds with a new episode in two weeks.