Antony Blinken on National Cybersecurity and an Evolving State Department

They're engaged, for example, right now

in an extensive expansion of their nuclear program,

the highest end chips.

We want to make sure that China is not able to acquire those

and then feed them directly into its military program.

Wired sat down with US Secretary

of State Antony Blinken

to talk about emerging technology and cybersecurity.

This is The Big Interview.

[upbeat dramatic music]

Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for sitting with us today.

Great to be with you.

I want to ask you a little bit about the way

that you have prioritized cybersecurity

at the Department here.

Last July, of course, the State Department was the one

that actually discovered the Chinese intrusion

of Microsoft systems, which for those of us

who cover cybersecurity, was shocking

that the State Department would be the originator

of discovering an event.

It was a a little surprising for me too,

both a pleasant surprise

because I was very proud of the fact

that we have remarkable people

in place who are able to do that.

But of course, when you have any kind of cyber intrusion,

it's a deep concern,

and it's an ongoing concern for the government.

It's exactly why we tried to make this department,

among other things fit for purpose

when it comes to cybersecurity.

One of the things that you have done is create

this new cybersecurity bureau

with Ambassador Nate Fick.

I wonder if you could talk a little bit

about the effort to build, not digital sovereignty,

but digital solidarity.

Look, what we've seen, what I've seen since coming back

to the State Department three

and a half years ago, is that everything happening

in the technological world

and in cyberspace is increasingly central

to our foreign policy.

It's central because we see extraordinary possibility

and actually making a difference on critical issues

that matter to people around the world matter

to our own people, whether it's health,

whether it's education, whether it's climate.

We also see the vulnerabilities and the dangers.

We know that what's happening at home

and what's happening around the world

are increasingly connected, so we wanted to make sure

that we're taking account of that

in the way we set ourselves up, the way we attract talent,

and the way we conduct our diplomacy.

There's almost a perfect storm.

Several major developments

that have really brought this to the forefront

of what we're doing and what we we need to do.

First, we have a new generation of foundational technologies

that are literally changing the world all at the same time.

So whether it's AI, whether it's quantum,

whether it's microelectronics, biotech, telecoms,

they're having a profound impact,

and increasingly their conversion

and feeding off of each other.

Second, we're seeing that the line between the digital

and physical worlds is evaporating, erasing.

We have cars, we have ports, we have hospitals

that are huge, in effect, data centers

with so much information being generated

or coming in, big vulnerabilities,

and at the same time, we have increasingly rare materials

that are critical to be able to advance technology,

and fragile supply chains.

In each of these areas,

the State Department is taking action.

And then finally,

we have to look at everything in terms

of stacks, the hardware, the software, the talent

and the norms, the rules, the standards

by which this technology are used.

All of this is coming together.

And the bottom line is our country

has to be at the height of competitiveness

if we're going to make sure that we're covering

all of these areas and making sure

that we're maximizing the good

and minimizing the bad.

This administration has made extraordinary investments

as you know, in our technology.

The Chips and Science Act,

the so-called Inflation Reduction Act,

which is the biggest investment in climate technology

in history.

And between the public

and the private, we've generated three

and a half trillion dollars of investment.

It's an incredibly powerful thing

because countries see the investments we've made

in ourselves, in our own competitiveness,

and they wanna work with us.

So I wanna make sure that we have the diplomats

who are trained, and able not only to engage,

but to lead all of these conversations around the world.

We've now trained more than 200 cybersecurity

and digital officers, people who are genuinely expert,

and that means every one of our embassies

around the world will have at least one person

who is truly fluent in tech and in digital policy.

My goal is to make sure that across the entire Department,

we have basic literacy, ideally fluency,

and even eventually mastery.

Your tenure here at Value Bottom has coincided

with what feels like the fracturing of the dream

of the global internet, and we've begun

to see the splintering into

a European regulatory web,

authoritarian regimes, using the internet

as a surveillance tool overseas.

Of course, we've seen this played out in US policy

on Huawei and TikTok.

I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your view

of the future of the internet.

Ideally, we don't have that fracture,

and certainly that would be the preference,

and we've done a number of things actually to try

to move in another direction, to try

to build broad consensus on the way technology is used,

because these rules, these norms, these standards,

that's absolutely critical

and the conversations about this often happen

in windowless rooms,

maybe at the UN, maybe halfway around the world.

Not only are we at the table, we want

to be at the head of the table.

Lemme give you an example.

On AI, we had incredible work done

by the White House to develop basic principles

with the foundational companies that were engaged in this,

the voluntary commitments that they made.

The State Department went out

and has worked to basically internationalize

those commitments, those principles.

We have a G7 Code of Conduct,

the leading democratic economies of the world, all agreeing

to basic principles with a focus on safety.

We managed to get the very first resolution ever

on artificial intelligence

through the United Nations General Assembly,

192 countries also signing up to basic principles on safety,

and a focus of using AI

to advance sustainable development goals.

These are the goals that the entire world has set to try

to move the world forward on things

like health, education, climate.

And we also have more than 50 countries

that have signed on to basic principles

on the responsible military use of AI.

So the goal here is not to have a world

that is bifurcated in any way.

It's to try to bring everyone together.

Having said that, you're right.

There are areas where, of course,

we're an intense competition with other countries,

and if we can't come together on rules

that make sure that we're elevating the good

and minimizing the bad, well, we have

to make sure we're protecting our values

and protecting our interests.

For example, when it comes to the highest end technology,

say the highest end chips that we have, we want to make sure

that a country like China is not able to acquire those

and then feed them directly into its military program.

They're engaged, for example, right now

at an extensive expansion of their nuclear program.

Very opaque.

It's not in our interest

to have the highest end technology

we have go right into that.

Also, technology is unfortunately used to repress people,

surveillance, repress their human rights.

We wanna make sure our technology's not used for that,

but as we've said, we wanna make sure that

as we're protecting, as opposed to promoting technology,

we're doing it in a way that has

the smallest possible yard,

along with the highest possible fence.

Because broadly speaking,

we want technology to get out there.

We see it profoundly as a source for good, for progress.

We wanna make sure it's shared widely and broadly,

and this is this notion of solidarity.

We want to be collaborating, cooperating,

working with other countries,

building capacity, sharing knowledge,

helping everyone solve these common problems,

but for discreet parts of the ecosystem, we have

to make sure we're protecting.

We have to have supply chains

that are not only resilient, but are diversified

so we're not dependent on any one place

for any critical input.

We went through COVID, we saw where that can lead.

We don't wanna see the same thing on critical technology.

So the goal, the hope

is to develop the broadest possible consensus,

but in certain areas, if we have to.

Yes, we're gonna make sure that we're well protected.

Let me ask you also about Russia

and ransomware, the another issue

that has defined your tenure

and the Biden Administration's national security agenda over

the last couple of years.

Is there more that the United States

and the Western Alliance could be doing to push Russia

to be a better actor online?

Or do you see this as an intractable problem going forward?

Look, it's an ongoing challenge,

and the invasion of Ukraine happened.

It's obviously made the entire relationship

much more difficult than it already was,

and so I think unfortunately there probably limits

as to what we we can achieve.

Having said that, we're also working

increasingly collaboratively,

not only with the private sector,

but also with other countries to develop common strategies,

to develop common approaches, to build solidarity there.

Because so many countries are afflicted

with the scores of ransomware.

We're sharing information, we're sharing best practices,

and we're looking at what kind

of collective action can be taken to deter

and disincentivize those who might be engaged in ransomware

or those who are supporting.

Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for sitting

with Wired for the big interview.

Great to be with you, Gary. Thank you.

[upbeat dramatic music]